Gamify Your Business and Win!

Are you getting the absolute best out of your team? Or, are they moving at a snails pace?  Why do some companies have employees that are excited to be there each day while others don’t?  In today’s podcast episode we’ll be diving deep into how to gamify your business with the legend Chuck Coonradt.  You’ll learn the simple 5 step framework so that you can make your business way more engaging for your team, which will translate to a much higher bottom line.

 

Podcast Transcript

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    Josh Fonger: [00:00:00] Hi this is Josh Fonger and welcome to the work the system podcasts where we help business owners go from just owning a job to owning a true business matching the systems so that they can simplify growth and they’re excited today to have a special guest. Chuck Coonradt. Yeah. Chuck or Charles Coonradt is the founder and CEO of the Game of Work which was founded in 1973 and dedicate to the success of its corporate clients. Chuck is a graduate of Michigan State University and internationally recognized in the field of goal setting and profit improvement as an author consultant and speaker his five bestselling books a game of work, the better people a leaders, scorekeeping for success, managing the obvious, and the four laws of financial prosperity have enabled management must reads and most recently Forbes magazine called Chuck that a grandfather of gamification. All right. So Chuck I’m very excited to have you on this program and can I pick your brain and learn some of your business theories and how to apply them. But before I begin all of that how did you get into this line of work in an author and speaker. How did that happen?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:01:06] Well two major steps. One is my degree is in supermarket operations. That was my grandfather and my father were grocers. And when I graduated from Michigan State I went to work in Southern California so I often describe myself as a box boy with a sheepskin. But it’s great industry. Then I came to Salt Lake City to work for Smith’s food chain organization which is part of the Kroger national group now. And after about a year we had an opportunity to affiliate with a franchise company out of Waco Texas called Success Motivation Institute. And I got started in this business selling about an 8 by 12 box that had 16 cassette tapes and two manuals on it as we did that for a few years. We contacted one of our clients was a publisher three generations and they really liked the message we had and we’d hone the skills around the core material for SMI. And they said you should write a book. I said Whoa I did not write, I talk and then they said three magic three magic things. No one will publish and distribute it. Number two we’ll provide you a co-author and all you have to do is talk. And then they mentioned the wonderful word in the publishing industry called royalties. And I didn’t realize until I had that conversation how badly I wanted to be an author. So the real credit goes to Lee Nelson who was my co-author and the first book. And Lee put my voice in it and he’s just a Masterful craftsman will totally always be indebted to him. But that’s how I got to be an author and they started to distribute it. They didn’t do real well with it. So we self published for a while and then another publisher picked it up and we sell a book for a while another book. So we’re up to I don’t know. Two hundred and fifty thousand copies in distribution over that period of time. That’s the author background.

    Josh Fonger: [00:03:16] Wow. Well that’s that’s good for me to hear too because I hate writing but I liked the idea of writing a book someday. So despite a good co-author and authors that’s very good. OK so tell us about the the theories in the book because these theories have stayed the test of time and so you sound like you apply them first to grocery stores but then you realize they work everywhere. So what are the different theories of gamification?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:03:42] Well by the Council of Michael Gerber the email author Michael said to me one time was we shared a stage. He said you really need to tell people your a epiphany. How did this come to be in Michael’s very good it is. And so my epiphany was sort of a circumstance where I had my little magic box of talking tapes and books and I’m calling on a man who’s running a factory built home a prefab they don’t like that phrase. So factory built homes factory and we’re on the second floor looking down on that on the work floor. And he looks at me and he says What are you and your magic box going to do about that? And he’s already given me the kids today. Kids can’t work. Kids don’t care. Kids aren’t motivated. And it takes me over the windowing point stands. What are you gonna do about that. And that was eight 20 somethings working on a house. And to describe their workpace you would need arthritic words like arthritic snails and wet cement. I mean it was fine a nail find the hammer. It was just. Terrible. And for those of us in the audience who are unsettling you know that if you get an objection and you don’t have quite overcome it. The clock stops. And that happened to me. And then I got rescued by lunch because when the lunch bell went off those eight guys dropped those hammers like they were electrified took off on a dead run like somebody hit them with cattle prods and ran 50 yards half of them taken their shirts off. Where they found a basketball hoop and I watched them on their own time. Nobody paid them play four on four with the intensity of a game seven NBA finals and at eight at twelve forty two without a scrap plan of management and a performance appraisal process a score card or anything else everybody knew their job and what to do. Twelve forty to by some silence signal they stop picked up their sack lunches and their sodas and started walking back. To the job site. No reason to hurry now. At one o’clock they’re back on the clock arthritic that arthritic snails and wet cement and I look at those redneck. At least that’s what Jeff Foxworthy would call him and I said you know there’s nothing wrong with those kids. It’s not that problem. And in my mind this tongue twister occurred and I have to explain a little bit but I created I realized that there was something out there that people would pay for the privilege of working harder than they would work when they were paid. That something happened under that basketball hoop. And so I began to just contemplate I wouldn’t even call this research it would give research a bad name. But we started to contemplate what did I see under the basketball hoop. That I didn’t see. When they were being paid to work. And from that came the five principles of what we identified as the motivation recreation.

    Josh Fonger: [00:06:51] That’s a great story and memorable one final. Forget it now. So how so. These are the principles of recreation. What why are those principles?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:06:59] Well there’s five of them. And the number one and the one that we when I wrote the book I didn’t realize this was the most important thing we’d discovered. But the most important thing we discovered is the feedback and recreation is more frequent than it is in work. So we’ll go to a golf course and in four hours we’ll get feedback 70 80 90 100 times every time we swing the ball. A tennis match. The same thing and most of the people who work in today’s world in four hours don’t even know what shape the ball is. So we work two thousand hours in a normal work year and we might wind up with a 40 minute performance evaluation process which is out of sync outdated. The rest of and my approach my impression is that if we all think that the annual performance appraisal is enough. Try it in your marriage. So when your spouse says How was that meeting any one of a number of things I’ll let the imagination go. You can simply say don’t worry about a thing there we’ll just review it and writing on our anniversary.

    Josh Fonger: [00:08:17] Right. Yeah. One year from now.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:08:19] Okay I rest my case on annual performance appraisal. So the feedback is more frequent and we discovered some things about feedback and that is that the more frequent the feedback you actually get almost an aspirin effect of improvement in quality and quantity of performance. I don’t know that I can exactly explain it. That’s why use of phrase aspirin. We don’t know exactly why it works it just works. So that’s the feedback is the is the ultimate process or the ultimate differential and there’s all kinds of experiments about feedback and denial of feedback and. The rest of the stuff. But increasing the feedback will increase in performance so some will. Number two. We recognize that in recreation the score keeping is contemporaneous. Now another way to say that is that the people know the score while the game’s going on so they can change their behavior to win before time runs out. We had a early in our career we had a young lady who was a MacDonald’s counter person and she decided she was going to sell french fries to every person who came in regardless of what else they ordered. And so she she marked down and had a soul just check sheet next to the register whether that person ordered fries or not. And I don’t know that she got everybody but I do remember that she got somebody who came in to order an ice cream cone and walked out with an order of french fries. So knowing the score during the Games is critical. So we asked the question in your business and your company to our audience is your scorekeeping more like figure skating or ice hockey? Figure skating in a skater doesn’t know how they scored until there there’s no chance to fix it. Nancy Kwan lost a gold medal and Nagano in Japan and one of the Olympics by one hundredth of a point and didn’t know it until she couldn’t fix it. Contrast that to hockey where you know the score every minute. You can change your behavior change. Change your press line. You can even pull a goalie at the end of the game. If you’re too far behind. To get another rusher on the ice. So the good question for our audience is as you look at your score keeping with your employees and your team. Ice hockey annual statement monthly statements. Two weeks after the months over blah blah blah. Or ice hockey, how do we win the day. So one of the things that happens when people complete a game of work installation in their company is that we’re focused on everybody knows on a daily basis for winning or losing. And it’s kind of a mantra with us to force that scenario that people know whether they’re winning or losing. There’s a company that has a little kiosk it’s a freestanding thing and it has four smart as four faces on it. I saw my first one in a restroom in SeaTac but there was a Greens big happy smiley face and members a yellow and an orange and a red. And the idea is that as you’re walking out of the restroom all you do is you go hit the button. And that way the restroom attendant understands or gets feedback on what they need to do. I’ve often thought it would be interesting if we installed by the time clock a green red yellow button that just says as you punch out you know you won did you know you lost or did you not have a clue as to what you did today. And that that would be a scary scary feedback system for leaders. A number three the goals are more clearly defined in recreation than they are in work. So if we go to play Pebble Beach we get a map of a golf course. We get the par ratings we’ll get the yardage. We get a number of other things and. In today’s technological world somebody is going to have one of those range finder deals. know that says this is how far the pin is. Really clear, you know none of us would go to Pebble Beach and take a weed whacker in our hand and manual one. And just go out there and swing it 72 times and walk seventy two yards around cart path. You know you go oh what a dumb idea that would be but that’s what we do in our businesses too often. So the goals need to be clear. The fourth one, that gets a lot of play is they don’t change rules on you in the middle of the game. So if you look in recreation the elasticity of a golf ball critically meets a certain standard can’t be hotter than that. Sammy Sosa gets in trouble for Cork and his bat because at some. I mean we’re really big on consistency. And not change rules but too often especially as businesses are coming up out of the ground and I remember we probably did this in violation of our own principles early you know one day we’re driving cash flow the next day we’re driving customer experience and we’re going to go Oh we got a product issue. Now it’s gross margin was that and we too often in businesses if we played the corporate or the equivalent of the amusement park game called whack a mole you know so we go beat this mole down we go beat that mole down and we have to recognize as as we’ve implicated implicated we implemented this process that the number one thing that people want in their coach is consistency. And so even if you’re. You know there’s a famous generation of coaches maybe much of our audience won’t remember. But Bear Bryant at Alabama, Woody Hayes at Ohio State, Bo Schembechler at Michigan, Bobby Knight Indiana basketball coach that were that were mad men who were just raging bulls not too politically correct in today’s circumstances but they were consistent. Always consistent. You knew what to counter and even John Wooden the famous UCLA basketball coach not the raging bull that we just described but very very much a stickler for the standards. You know first day at practice he showed you how to put on your socks. Because don’t put your socks on you get blisters be it blisters you can’t play you can’t practice. So consistency is a huge element. So don’t change your rules on me about parenthetically consistent coaching. And the last thing we realized about the motivational recreation is that there’s a choice there’s some level of personal choice. So I am a downhill skier. I live in Park City Utah. I ski three to four days a week in the wintertime which is why we’re doing this interview after lifts close. But I see no reason as a downhill skier to walk up any mountain that has a lift on it. That would be stupid. But. My brothers and sisters in the cross-country ski deal don’t have money for heel bindings. But they tell you there’s no reason to pay somebody to take you where you can get on your own. So it’s a question of choice. My daughter’s a skydiver. I see no reason. I have four million miles on Delta. I never get out of an airplane if the engine works, really goofy. But as a certified scuba diver makes perfect sense to me to put 45 minutes where they are on my back and go just as far as I can from the next breath. So that element of choice. Now we’re not preaching chaos and people will agree with ownership and leadership equity or rights I think is maybe the word to set the goals in the direction of the organization. What they’ll kill for is being able to you being able to go about it in their personalized way. So you know you really wouldn’t. I know this isn’t going to go live but you and I both know that we had a spectacular event occur this past Sunday when Tiger won at Augusta and you know you really don’t want to go change Tiger shot, Tiger go score do it the way you want. So what we found is that when you extend choice on methods and methodology in the company what you get is buying in. Too often as owners or leaders we go on and retreat we get away from the real world go think up a bunch of crazy stuff. And. Then we come back and we’re always whining about it can’t get the team to buy in. Why do why can’t I get the team to buy in Josh the reason is they no input into your cockamamie idea. So we get the motivation recreation to work when you extend choice to people in terms of how are we going gonna go get this done.

    Josh Fonger: [00:17:42] That’s great I mean each one of these concepts we could mine for hours with examples let’s go through the list of one more time and let’s let’s try to dive deeper into each one of these I’ve got a ton of questions so let’s let’s go with the feedback. So your a business let’s just say let’s use an example let’s say you got a coffee shop at a coffee shop and you’ve got two people who are making the coffees and making the sandwiches over. How do you give them feedback in a meaningful way and how consistent would you do it in which you use technology. Like what. Oh that look like?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:18:16] Well the first part is to engage them in what kind of feedback would you like. Go to one of our other beliefs that comes out of our work is that we believe that everybody comes to work with one question in their mind and that is how do I win. Now if I make $15.50 in a coffee shop and I can make sixteen dollars in a coffee shop down the street. There’s not a significant economic I mean I know that’s 500 bucks a year but there’s not a significant economic differential between my coffee shop and your coffee shop. But if the people at work in my coffee shop had decided that how many people they serve a day. Is an important. Piece of information. Then I share that. If I say if I say to people what is the. You should know the average check size if you’re a server or a barista in a coffee shop. I’m going to share with you that I don’t know a coffee shop in a world because we didn’t have any as clients. I don’t know a coffee shop in a world that knows what the average check is. But I do know that we had a very upscale restaurant and they wanted to sell more desserts, reasonable right? So we asked the waitresses to track their tips Don’t tell me you just do it but graph it put it into a game work scorecard. And every night when you go home grab a few tips. Well once they started graphing the tips. Guess what there was a relationship to the size of the check and the size of the tip. So what we found out was this as they started to say well that’s just five hundred dollar night or 350 night whatever the numbers were just being able to ask for dessert got them more more larger checks more bigger checks and resulted in more tips. So it doesn’t have to be. You know it doesn’t have to be something that the engineers at Apple or Google or Amazon figure out. It’s really a question of how do we win at this job.

    Josh Fonger: [00:20:35] So helping them define with you what winning looks like in their particular role. So for the waiter waiter it’s not profitability it’s not opening new locations it’s true to their heart which is winning means more tips and more tips means restaurant sold more food. Which means the owner made more money.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:20:55] Sure.

    Josh Fonger: [00:20:56] OK. You know I’m do it.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:20:58] If you say and today I think we’ve lost this little bit but because maybe it’s part of the overall entitlement thing. But. You know you now get with your check and many restaurants. A 12 percent 15 percent 18 percent 20 25 percent recommendation. As to how much you want to tip. Sort of inferring you’re not smart enough to figure this out on your own. But also inferring that you know nobody in the world would tip less than 12 percent just because be a putz to do that. But if you really say that the tip is to ensure great service then there’s a relationship between. I’M GOING TO MAKE YOU KNOW I AM GOING TO MAKE THIS YOU the customer your experience incredible. And sometimes it’s as simple as getting some linkage in the deal.

    Josh Fonger: [00:21:56] So teaching them to make the feedback so they can weigh in on what about actual score keeping. So you mentioned that the ice hockey how there’s actually scorekeeping throughout the whole game. Let’s just stick with this high end restaurant like you want to move to another one? How do they make the scorecard available to say all throughout a busy Friday night. Is there a way to make a scorecard available?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:22:19] Sure. See again it’s mostly a mindset. Every restaurant in the world is going to close out the night at the end of the night when there’s nothing we can do to fix it. We’re gonna get our data done. Ice skating. But there’s really no reason that I can’t in five you know 15 seconds and most of those electronic cash register systems that in five seconds or 15 seconds I can identify how that hour was. I can create how that hour was with last Friday from seven to eight. Now you may create that score you may have some people that. Say I don’t care about that I’m just here I’m just here to make some money I don’t care about your business but when you start to tell people when you’re hiring them what your system is and that we do this on a Friday night and we do a little whoop de do. I mean you know you come into almost any restaurant chain now and say it’s our birthday and somebody is gonna come over and clap and sing and bang on fans and and do the rest of that. Well why not just have sort of a secret signal that the last hour we just did was a record 7 to 8 p.m. hour in this restaurant forever. It’s a chime it’s a ding it’s a no I’m not trying to be Pavlovian you’re about dogs respond but. But it’s that idea that you’re also saying to your team we think it’s important enough for you to know. And that really makes you a partner in the business. Now you could you can choose to reject that. You can choose to take the mindset. I’m just here for the minimum wage and the tips I’m just working I ain’t happy about it. Or you can say this is part of our. This is part of our culture. And when you put that when you put the scorecards into the hiring interview that’s a terrific sought to see if the people that you’re interviewing are people who want to play.

    Josh Fonger: [00:24:36] That’s right. OK. So you tell them in advance what kind of culture it is and some apply some wont. But I like the idea of giving them at least giving them a chance to see the overall vision and participate let us see organizations will have a little digging bell so they’ll kind of thing that whenever a sales makes everyone in the office knows. Yeah.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:24:55] Yeah yeah absolutely. We had a loan processor. This is this is the weird one of the weird stories. We had a loan processor in Phoenix and she was three times as productive as anybody else on the team. Just head and shoulders above. And so people were down trying to digitize the process. And so why is Mary’s production. And they said well she. She rings a bell every time she finishes an app and they’re there for a couple you know half a day and they go we don’t we don’t hear the bell so the manager goes well here’s really a bell. It’s a bell in Mary’s head. But Mary when she finishes an app Mary just has kind of a yes. All right. Rings the bell. And away we go. So. So. And not a client of arts. I have an extra depth to devise somebody is said you know this looks like your stuff. Do I have anything to do with it. Yeah. The idea that we’re ringing the bell we’re doing that seems we’re doing something that adds value and purpose to the work. That’s really what feedback score you can do.

    Josh Fonger: [00:26:16] I love that. I think that’s definite that I’m going to add to my client work is that it’s you know it’s a week delay it’s a lagging indicator it’s a month away or a quarter way. How do you guys get those things and every minute every hour as quick as possible. Lot of games being played. So let’s move on to the goals. OK. So we had this high end restaurant and we have the team there in the feedback what what kind of goals do you said you let them set their own goals? How do you go about doing that?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:26:43] Well there’s a couple of spaces you can look for your goals. One is ask your banker. What’s your banker will always set your goals for you. If you have a loan your goals make the payments. And I’m not being I don’t mean to be facetious about that. As I just came off that. But Drucker wrote a book way back in the 60s called managing for results I think. But the key in that point is Drucker said there are three goals in every business which means you should listen to them. And he said the goals in business are survival,profit, and growth. Now we’ve had some you know some disastrous examples of organizations who have violated that you know in the tech boom we had grow grow grow grow grow and we had billion dollar valuations on companies that didn’t have a dime’s worth of revenue and dropped a bit. Now you’ve got some other ones that have survived that and gone after had gone out to to create a footprint or create an infrastructure. But you know Lyft just went public at some incredible valuation. They doubled the rides last year and doubled their losses. Now I’m just telling you at some point in time somebody’s got to figure that someone someone’s got to figure that out. So survival profit and then growth. And so if you say in your coffee shop or in your your five person dry cleaning business or any other small or if it’s just you you say well or do I need to do to survive? What does survival look like to me? Well one is. And one thing we don’t talk about very much in business today is we get a break even. At some stage big game every entity of every magnitude of every funding source at some point in time has got to break even where their gross margin exceeds their expenses. If you don’t do that at some point in time unless you have some incredibly optimistic funding source it’s not going to get there. And part of an angel investment group and everybody who presents to us as the constant you know the requisite slide deck. And income forecast sixty seven months in advance. And so I just adopted a question that has made me really unpopular with most of our presenters and that is help me understand how we’re going to keep from going broke while we’re fixin to get rich. So show me the path to the first revenue dollar. Show me the path to break even. Show me that you’re thinking about doing something besides burning through your angel money to get to an a round of burning through your a round to get to a B round. And help me understand the format of how this thing pencils. Because I’m on the other end of that you know one of the obviously the Wizard of Main Street. You know. Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway we have two companies here in Utah that are Berkshire Hathaway companies. And Warren wants to buy stuff that’s simple and simply profitable. And he manages them in a really pretty much hands off kind of a concept because it’s just about selling a widget for less than it costs you to make the widget selling more of those widgets that are etc. So I think from a goal standpoint and especially when you look at the at the painfully large number of businesses that will not survive year one, year three, year five. Survival is a really dandy first goal. And then take your goals as an owner or an entrepreneur and translate them them into what do I need from my team in order to survive. What I need from my team in order to survive is I need everybody on the organization to contribute more than they’re compensated for. Now that might be a difficult conversation to have because sometimes we don’t open up and we don’t tell our people that our survival is tied to their survival and that’s it. Or we get embarrassed. You know we go oh I’m a business owner and therefore I’m something close to deity. and I don’t want to be embarrassed by the fact that I’m scared crap list that I’m not gonna make it through the next payroll. Work with the people say this is what we’re gonna do this is the direction we’re gonna go be clear and then and then what. What’s profitable? We need to be profitable why do we need to be profitable, Chuck? We need to be profitable so that we know in a slight downturn I’ve got something set aside to make payroll for the next 26 payrolls. That’s why we need to be profitable. Understand. You know we in the grocery industry is a funny industry. I grew up in it so I can laugh at it, tease it. But across the business across the world grocery stores net I haven’t looked at it recently. But. By and large it was just inside one and a half percent. Let me translate that for you. The average transaction in a grocery store is twenty five dollars now. Most people out there who have a family go. Can you teach my spouse how to get out of a grocery store for twenty five dollars. I would pay you a lot of money but across the board that’s what it is. So one and a half percent of twenty five bucks is 40 cents. It’s 40 cents now the lowest paid kid in the store is a bag boy. And bags costs money and in fact bags can eat up. Of the 50 of the 40 cents bags can eat up six cents in a in a real hurry. So now we’re untrusting. What is it. We’re entrusting 25 percent of our profitability to the lowest paid kid in the store and we don’t tell him at all what we expect out of him how much he ought to put in the bag. What a good day is or a bad day. It’s like Chucky. Go get the carts you know. That’s it. So those are just some of the ways that you start to make yourselves aware but you start to look at what what’s the value of the transaction. If somebody comes in and orders seven dollar I don’t know. I’m not a coffee drinker. So I hope somebody comes in and orders a seven dollar latte car more vanilla or whatever it is we make any money on thing. Because most employees in the absence of the truth will assume that gross sales equals net profits. And and it’s our fault that exists.

    Josh Fonger: [00:33:59] Yeah that’s very true. I often do a demo with my clients but I’ll take a dollar bill and I’ll explain to them where a dollar comes into the business. How much is the owner actually keep. And I’ll do a demo there sometime as I will tear apart the dollar bill and explain you know the owner is left with this little tiny fraction of a fraction a fraction that’s profit and the owner has to decide they’re going to save it reinvested research and development. But I mean there’s usually just a little piece left at the end and that’s why everything matters.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:34:29] And if you’re working in a grocery store you’d have to have a scissors because you couldn’t tear. A small enough piece to resent that one point thirty five.

    Josh Fonger: [00:34:38] So how about consistent coaching. How does that play out. And we can go a restaurant or another analogy miss out. So if you have a business and you want to provide consistent coaching to your employees or team maybe it’s a virtual business to have you? How do you do that without burning up so much time? It’s pretty time consuming.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:34:59] Well let’s say somebody works 40 hours a week for four point three in a month. Hundred either 68 or 73 I can’t do the math that quick my head but anyway so the question is out of that hundred and sixty eight hours. How much direction should you go. Our suggestion is, is that if you’re not given that individual at least an hour a month of good feedback and coaching against the score cards and against the things that we’re doing that you really are missing it.

    Josh Fonger: [00:35:33] OK. So you let him Flounder too much. I gave him that feedback as.

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:35:37] Well. And here’s the other thing here’s the Coonradt rule of mostly, most folks do most of what they do mostly right, most of the time most places. Therefore most of that coaching and most of that feedback is deservedly positive or celebratable or reinforcing. Here’s the problem in business we don’t understand how to train a puppy, though trained in a retriever. You need to do what Skinner B.F. Skinner the father behavioralism said. Step one is you get to learn how to reinforce the behavior you want repeated. So when the dog brings you the stuff phony pheasant thing that you’re thrown out there for the retreat. He brings em back to that dog needs to be appreciated because he’s doing what you ask him to do. Now too often we get with a dog. We get tired of throwing the thing out before he gets tired of bringing it back. And we shut down and give negative feedback. We’re done. Duke you know we’re done. And that happens to offen to us and business so. So what we want is we want accurate cashiers and bank tellers. In too many organizations their report is called overs and shorts. You’ve got a screw up to get listed. FedEx wants it to be on time in the right place. There are reports called late and missing shipments. Everybody wants to work in a safe environment. We track accidents. Okay so would we work in violation of what we know to be the most basic behavioral change principles in the world. So what we ask our coaches and leaders at the training that is figure out how to make a big deal out of the good stuff. You want more of. So what’s a perfect load? What percentage of the time or haul awesome when your car comes out of the auto body collusion repair shop? OK. Is it fixed the way you want it to be called fixed right first time we have a really good friend who took our concepts in and really built a practice with collision repair shops. There are more of them than there are car dealerships and one of the things that we helped Jeff work out in terms of track. Is how many perfect cars can we roll out of here before we have one. Somebody comes back to answer all of the places he did is a good number. We don’t know what is just the number. All right. So when we start looking at perfect car perfect car perfect car we’ve got up on the scoreboard somewhere. Number of cars almost like you know and. In. A World War. And our combat action air combat action you get to stencil the bogeys on your fuselage of everything that you knock down which we turn that around and let them put perfect ones up in fact we had an opportunity to work with Hill Air Force Base which now has the F35 fleet that for years at the F16 fleet. And the mechanics got to post on the wall of the shop when they had an airplane out and they sent the airplane out and they came back and the check ride pilot said. This is fine. They put another detail up on the wall.

    Josh Fonger: [00:39:13] Good positive reinforcement. Now I love it. I’m thinking this or my parenting too with my kids. I mean all these concepts I’ve got to apply for that as well. I spend hours on that. Last one. So the AP piece with coaching is keep the rules and keep it consistent. And then you get a personal choice and if you’ve been familiar with Sam’s book part of what we do is try to build and build the best way to do everything we build systems document them and of course explore this idea of personal choice. How much choice to give somebody when you’ve already kind of predetermined the best way to do something? How much choice to give them?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:39:50] Well in the circumstances that you’re chatting about if you’ve got the perfect system. Let me go back to Aristotle and a whole developed the whole thing called Aristotelian thought. Now that’s not part of most entrepreneurship classes but I’m going to make a bridge. So Aristotle said you know he pointed to the table. And he said that’s a table. It will always be a table. Everybody agrees it’s a table that’s Aristotelian. Socrates came along and said You know what. That’s not a table unless I think it’s a table. Now there’s a great deal of evidence that Socrates was smarter than Aristotle when it comes to people. So your best practice which is. A word that. Has lots of about it but your best practice is not a best practice unless I think so. So part of it here. Here’s what we do we get arrogant with what we develop. So we say all right Coonradt, this is the best practice. It’s inviolate. It’s part of Scripture. It is. This is a best practice and by that very phrase we’re saying don’t even think about fixing well Intuit. I’m looking for. I’m looking to make it my own. So you really need what we really do as leaders if we do have a best practice or we do have. This is our way. The thing we need to do is not presume or assume that it stands on its Aristotelian basis and we say you know trying a couple of ways. But what I want is I want our best practice to become your best practice as you participate in it. But I’m not here to say it’s our best practice can adopt it. You’re an idiot.

    Josh Fonger: [00:41:51] I love it. And wish it were definitely the same way. We let our teams know this is the best we come up with so far. But we love to make it better. Love for them to come up with innovations like this because it’s just as good as we can do it right now. But of course it’s better ways. Yeah. I give him that opportunity. Wow. Well this is this is good and I think I’m right a lot of notes here. It’s hard and it’s easier to talk about this than do actually apply it. I think the of book is probably actually in being creative enough to solve your real business problems with these things. Break your old patterns of doing things. Maybe most people do it just reactionary. This is more thoughtful business management and we’ll take some time next put them in place. So what what can folks do. Now we’re getting kind of late in the clock here. What can folks do to find out more information about you about your books about how to improve their businesses using this kind of gamification?

    Chuck Coonradt: [00:42:47] Well of course it’s 2019 so there’s always a web address and the Web site is a game of work dot com. All of our books are available on Amazon in a variety of their formats Kindle book. Audio book hard. Or soft cover. Paper. So you reach out to do that. There are links on our Web site that you can get a free Executive Summary. Of any one of the five books and evaluate that you choose. There is a way on there to contact us with questions and comments and. Rest of it. But remember I’m a grandfather and I’m also the grandfather gamification. I’m primarily retired but anybody out there has a question we’d be happy to entertain that email etc.. So there we are.

    Josh Fonger: [00:43:41] Good. Well again I appreciate you making time for this podcast. I know I had a little favor with a friend of mine. And thank you everybody for listening to today’s podcast at work the system. It’s really come in. Check out again next week where I’ll have another guest like Chuck. Share with you a little bit how to grow your business make it more simple so it can scale. Thanks again everybody.

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